There Is A Method to the Madness
This is a podcast where I will be discussing all aspects of physical fitness. I am an exercise physiologist and personal trainer and owner of Maxwell's Fitness Programs for the last 25 years. My passion is health and fitness and I am excited to share my views, some stories, interviews and much more with you.
There Is A Method to the Madness
Why Massage Therapy works with Ellen Caravati
Welcome to there is a Method to the Madness. My name is Rob Maxwell and I'm an exercise physiologist and personal trainer. I am the owner of Maxwell's Fitness Programs and I've been in business since 1994. The purpose of this podcast is to get to the real deal of what really works and, most importantly, why things work. Hence the name. There is a a method to the madness.
Speaker 1:Before I get to today's show, I want to thank Jonathan and Lynn Gildan of the Gildan Group at Realty Pros. They are committed to providing the highest level of customer service in home sales. Why don't you give them a shout and figure out what your home is worth? 386-451-2412. Good morning and welcome to today's show. We got another special interview show today. I'm going to be interviewing Ellen Karavati as far as how massage therapy helps people. We have had her on the show before and talked about general wellness and things about her, but we're really going to dive in today about the benefits of massage therapy. So let me introduce Ellen. I'm going to ask her some questions, I'm basically going to be interviewing her and let's see what she has to say. How are you doing this morning, ellen?
Speaker 2:I'm well, thank you.
Speaker 1:All right, so let's get into a little bit of the background as to what got you into massage therapy. So what year did you decide to do it and why did you decide to do it?
Speaker 2:I went to massage school in 1993. I had been working in the realm of health and fitness but met a couple when I was selling fitness equipment that were massage therapists and really talked about the things they could do with muscles and I was really impressed by that and I think that you know their purpose was to really help people get out of pain and that was really attractive to me. So I went back to school after my stint with a little master's work in physical therapy. But yeah, I went to massage school and just fell in love with massage and helping people get out of pain for the first time.
Speaker 1:Where did you go to massage school?
Speaker 2:At that time it was called the Reese Institute of Massage Therapy in Oviedo, florida.
Speaker 1:Is it still in operation? No, no, Okay. So I met you at Kaiser University. You were the massage therapy director there, so you've had a you know obviously a very long career with this. You've worked with, you know different types of individuals, so you've been practicing. How long have you been a massage therapist? So that was 1993, you said 32 years now 32 years, so right around the same time I got into personal training. So that is a long time Now, have you like? Did you take a break?
Speaker 2:I guess you really couldn't, right, Because you have to keep up your massage license well, I do my continuing education every two years but I've always kept a few clients just because I love the work. But, yes, I took some. I took some hiatus is to work in the corporate world, in the realm of wellness and health, and, yeah, that was just not my thing.
Speaker 1:So but you're able to keep your massage license the whole time. Yes, always. So that tells me you knew you were going to go back to it, or you would have just let it go.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So you're very passionate about massage. I mean, I know you are.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I always told my students when I was teaching legal and ethical business practices that, no matter what, maintain your license, because you never know when you're going to want to do it and when there's a need for you to do it.
Speaker 1:How long did you teach massage therapy?
Speaker 2:Well, I started assisting in my school in Oviedo gosh probably in 93. Because of my background, I was able to assist the musculoskeletal anatomy teacher, so I've been teaching. I started teaching in 93. And then, all the way through, they did away with the program at Kaiser in 2014 or 15.
Speaker 1:How long were you the massage therapy director at Kaiser?
Speaker 2:Almost nine years.
Speaker 1:That's a long time. Years, that's a long time. What uh, not by name, but uh, who, like was your greatest success story as far as creating a um massage therapist again not by name, but like. What made them such a cool success story for you, like you know, I mean, I taught and it's pretty cool to watch people come in and go. Oh wow, they're really going to have a good career.
Speaker 2:Oh, I see. So I've had a fair amount of students go on to physical therapy school to get their degrees and then also acupuncture, chiropractic work, become nurses and they do nursing and massage therapy. I mean there's so many avenues to go, but having that ability to really help people with musculoskeletal issues is a big thing.
Speaker 1:You're really understanding the body.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because I notice that's one of your skills as a personal trainer when you're working with the clients, you're really able to help them identify the muscles, which I think is so important, because so many people just don't or I should say so many trainers, honestly, I don't think understand the muscular system well enough. So what are the main things that people can benefit from from massage? What are, what are some of the main things?
Speaker 2:Well, obviously, pain relief, I mean, that's number one.
Speaker 1:So let me interrupt you there. Why, why, why does massage therapy help with pain? Because if I didn't know better, I would think that pushing on a spot that's in pain would hurt more. So why does that work?
Speaker 2:Well, there's many different modalities in massage, but the biggest thing that I probably the main thing I talk about when somebody comes in to see me is that I am trying to engage the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and relax system of the nervous system. We as humans, for the most part, walk around or run around in the sympathetic, which is fight or flight. So a good part of my work is to help the patient, the client, engage their parasympathetic nervous system. That so that everything, every part of the body, can then relax in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1:So isn't that counterintuitive? Like how do you engage the parasympathetic system when you're really supposed to be not engaging it? So walk me through that. So like, how do they learn how to not activate an area they're supposed to not activate?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean that I don't know that we have control over that totally, but we can certainly do mindful things like breathing, meditation, exercise, yoga, walking. I mean there's many things, but a big part of the work that I do is I have a technique that I learned from a chiropractor many years ago and became certified in the technique to really help the brain get back into the center of the skull, Because most of us and it may sound crazy, but our brain shifts in the skull as we get stressed and tired and anxious and all these things. So, yeah, that's one of the first things I do is to get the cerebrospinal fluid flowing and allowing the brain to sit where it needs to sit so the whole nervous system can calm down.
Speaker 1:So what is that technique called?
Speaker 2:The cranial release technique, crt. Yes.
Speaker 1:So I was thinking that, like if this whole personal training and massage gig thing doesn't work out for us, because it's only been 32 years, so there's a good chance. It may not, you know, joke, you know, maybe we could take that show on the road, because I've never really believed, as you know, the CRT, like I'm still so skeptical to this day not the actual technique, but you do this push test thing that like you push on somebody's hip prior to the treatment and they basically just fall to the side and then you do the CRT and you have them relax and they take a couple steps, whatever, you do it again and you can't budge them and like it almost looks like a circus act Because you're like, come on, they just didn't try the first time, but it's, it's so, it's amazing, obviously amazing. Obviously I'm clowning around about the circus act thing, but like why?
Speaker 2:why? I mean so many clients I can think are just like will come in and say can alan do a crt?
Speaker 1:so how does that happen? How do they have like no strength, and then they have strength because, as I said, the sympathetic is in full action.
Speaker 2:so the fight, fight or flight the tension. So the two tests that I do are you said, the first one is the push test, where literally I try to push people over, with them resisting me left side and right side, and 99 times out of 100, I can push the person over.
Speaker 1:Like, even if they're big, whether they're 300 pounds.
Speaker 2:Listen, we used to do it with the Bethune-Cookman football team, the players when I was teaching at Kaiser, like, even if they're big foot or one leg shorter than the other, and that's just not from a structural standpoint, because we carry tension typically more in one side than the other. So the technique that I, the CRT, is designed to really engage what's going on at the occiput, the base of the skull, and the relationship between the skull and the first two cervical vertebrae, your C1 and C2.
Speaker 1:What's the occiput? The?
Speaker 2:occiput is the base of the skull, in the back of the skull.
Speaker 1:So not only do you know your muscles, you know your bones.
Speaker 2:Well, I can't know the muscles if I don't know the bones. So, yes, so I put people into a comfortable position in neck flexion, which can't be too comfortable for some people. But the only contraindication, the only way, the only reason I can't do a cranial release technique on someone is if they've had a cervical fracture. And to this point, I've only known one person in my 32 years of doing work that's had a cervical fracture.
Speaker 1:That was our NASCAR driver, who will remain nameless. Yes, which?
Speaker 2:makes total sense. So yeah, so I get the person on the table and they go face up and I put them into a pretty severe neck flexion and then I hang out at the base of their skull to feel for different tissue release signs, and that's a whole complicated thing. But tissue release, you know, it can be a fascial release, which is, you know, the connective tissue in the body. It can be a muscular release, it may be even a change in their breathing. You know, I keep an eye on their feet and I may see that their feet are starting to change, to shift, and the one side is getting longer. So, yeah, so it's. You know, it's just really getting the cerebrospinal fluid to flow evenly from the head to the hips and when that happens, then they're able to relax and feel better. And, you know, sometimes it lasts for two weeks, sometimes it lasts for two days. It depends on what we have going on in our lives.
Speaker 1:So I got two other things I want you to cover. Regarding massage. You keep talking about sympathetic and parasympathetic, which is huge. So are you telling me that massage therapy has a huge like hormonal benefit as well? Like, even if somebody is not in pain, I mean so many people are having like hormonal. I mean everybody has hormonal issues. It's so funny we think of menopause and pre-menopause, post-menopause, but like everybody has hormonal issues. I mean we are chemical human beings. So let's say, somebody is not in pain. Could massage therapy help with menopause and things like that and, if so, why?
Speaker 2:Well, yes, from a hormonal standpoint, the big hormone that obviously is involved in sympathetic is cortisol. The higher the cortisol level, the more stress we're under.
Speaker 1:So when people are going through menopause, is there more cortisol?
Speaker 2:From my understanding, yes, cortisol is typically higher in a peri or post-menopausal female.
Speaker 1:So what can massage therapy do to aid the persons who are going through either major hormonal changes in life, like menopause Men go through it too, by the way, like there's testosterone dips and all those types of things too. So so what does it do? How does it help?
Speaker 2:well, again, it's engaging the parasympathetic, and when this parasympathetic is engaged, all of the organs, all of the glands do not have to work as hard. I mean, that's it's I guess that's the best way to put it is that there's not a stress on the organs and the glands, because everything has a correlation. Every gland is related to a, to an organ. So I mean, yeah, that's really the gist of it.
Speaker 1:And longevity and longevity. So, like people talk about Tom Brady you know his, for those that don't know, he was playing at a high level in the NFL after the age of 40. And he talks about his rigorous massage therapy program and then LeBron James as well. So, like, massage obviously helps these guys. People say, what's the difference? Nowadays they're actually paying as much.
Speaker 1:The good ones not all of them because we're seeing athletes get hurt all the time because they're putting too much attention on the anabolic portion, trying to get better and better, but not enough on the recovery. But the good athletes the LeBron James, who's post-40 now the Tom Brady I think he played until he was 45, something like that yes, you know, put a lot of the emphasis on recovery, did they not? Yes, I mean they're doing massage and hyperbaric chambers. Now they're doing all these different things. So clearly that, as we age, to me seems like an ace in the hole, is it not? Yes, massage therapy and other forms of because I know you're really good about never stepping outside of your scope of practice, so you always say it's not just massage, it could be, like you said, acupuncture. A good chiropractor is is an essential tool, I believe a good one. Yes, there's a lot of things they can do, so all right, so, and by the way, is it true that you've worked with some Orlando Magic players in years past.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we all know it's true. I say that because Ellen is very humble and doesn't like to brag and of course we won't get into names because that is not the right thing to do. But that's pretty cool that you worked with an NBA team. They don't put their multi-million dollar players in the hands of somebody they don't trust, right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:All right. So she doesn't like to. She's very humble when it comes to that, so I'll just move on from that subject. Now, one thing I've noticed you've done lately that, like I never knew massage therapists did, and you're doing it. You got these gloves and you're doing TMJ work inside people's mouths. Like you don't think the massage therapist working inside somebody's mouth, but you're doing that. Can you tell everybody about that, because that's been like your thing lately? We're getting all these referrals for people that you literally help them sleep at night because you're helping them with their TMJ.
Speaker 2:So first, TMJ is temporal mandibular joint. It should be TMJD because we all have two TMJs temporal mandibular joints, so the term is actually dysfunction. So there's so many people that have headaches or grind their teeth at night, neck pain, I mean. Just there's so many issues and, yes, I've been getting a good amount of referrals for people that have that.
Speaker 2:And what I do in the TMJ work is to not only go inside the mouth but really to address all of the muscles and the bones in the cranium, in the skull. Because I'll just give you one example I was talking to somebody the other day that just had some wisdom teeth pulled and could barely open their mouth after for weeks. So I went in and released the masseter muscle, which is the main muscle in chewing and also is engaged, obviously, when we grind our teeth at night. There's a muscle that we see in the forehead that we can see actually when people chew, that pops out, called the temporalis, that becomes so tight and stuck that people are in pain all the time, so tight and stuck that people are in pain all the time. So, yes, the work goes inside the mouth to release some of the muscles that are just hyper, hyper, hypertonic, meaning they're so tight that they can't perform their normal job.
Speaker 1:And is that what leads to them grinding their teeth?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean well, it's a two way, it goes both ways.
Speaker 1:Because that's also a sign of anxiety, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I was just going to say a lot of grinding of the teeth is a stress response.
Speaker 2:Yeah, trying to use up the energy and then that then creates stress in the muscles of the head, muscles of the neck, muscles of the back, muscles of the chest. So yeah, it's so amazing to see. I'll just give you a little example. There's a three finger test that we do that. Um, you know, I have the client try to put their three fingers on into their mouth sideways, um, in between their teeth, Um, and if they can't do that, then they have some sort of TMJ dysfunction. Um, and it's amazing, Some people can only get two, some people can only get one into Some people can only get one Into the side.
Speaker 2:Sideways, in between the teeth.
Speaker 1:Because I'm trying to do it.
Speaker 2:No, in the front of your teeth, oh, in the center. Uh-huh so yes, it's a three-finger test. It sounds weird, but it.
Speaker 1:I just did it, though. So is that good? So that's good. Okay, so I can do that. A lot of people that, so they can't open their mouth enough. Is that what you're?
Speaker 2:saying Correct. They can hardly open their mouth to get two fingers, or one finger in some cases. And then after the treatment, and sometimes it takes more than one treatment.
Speaker 1:There should be a YouTube video, because I'm literally doing this. I mean people should see. I mean people should see. I never knew this, like I've known you for how long and I never knew this. 20 years. So seriously, Because you don't have a TMJ dysfunction Huh. Well, that's a good little test.
Speaker 2:Yep, it's a great test. So, yeah, and then after the treatment they have just movement and mobility and maybe no more headaches and no more neck pain. You know, oftentimes people that have had a lot of dental work they go in and they're having to have root canals and they're miserable for the months after it's because their muscles are still in that locked tight position.
Speaker 1:So we should talk to one of our clients who is a. What does she do? What is Sydney's official job?
Speaker 2:She's an endodontist, yeah, I mean that'd be a good referral system.
Speaker 1:It might help her, so okay. So last question for you what's the maximum amount somebody should do massage therapy, like once a week, whatever and what's the minimal amount they should do it on a regular basis to get benefits?
Speaker 2:I mean I can't you know, unless you're a Tom Brady. I mean, I think once a week is a great thing to be able to do if your schedule allows it and your pocketbook allows it, but at minimum, probably once a month is what we recommend.
Speaker 1:What's your like, your you know your average clientele. What do they do Bi-weekly?
Speaker 2:Twice, yeah, twice a month. And people ask me well, how often should I see you? And I say, let pain be your guide. If you are symptom-free, or at least the symptoms are minimized for seven days, then let's go. I'll see you in another seven days. If they're minimized for two weeks, then we'll go every two weeks. Some people they go. You know what I felt? Great for almost a month. Okay, then that's what we'll go on. It's not. I don't have a script about frequency.
Speaker 1:Okay, and it's typically an hour.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, very good, ellen. I appreciate your time For the listener. I'll just wrap up by saying that I caught Ellen off guard and hit her with this when she came in, because I know that she can answer all these questions impromptu. I didn't have to send her any prompts and she handled it like a trooper. So we appreciate you very much and, listener, until next time. Stay well.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to today's program. I ask you to please follow the show wherever you get your podcasts and please select automatic download, because that really helps the show. Now I want to thank overhead door of daytona beach, the area's premier garage door company. They they have the best product. They have the best service. I personally vouch for Jeff and Zach Hawk, the owners. They are great people with a great company. If you have any garage door needs, please give them a shout at 386-222-3165.
