There Is A Method to the Madness
This is a podcast where I will be discussing all aspects of physical fitness. I am an exercise physiologist and personal trainer and owner of Maxwell's Fitness Programs for the last 25 years. My passion is health and fitness and I am excited to share my views, some stories, interviews and much more with you.
There Is A Method to the Madness
Intrinsic vs Extrinsic: The Science That Drives Your Actions
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Welcome to the Fit, Healthy and Happy Podcast hosted by Josh and Kyle from Colossus...
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Welcome to there is a Method to the Madness . My name is Rob Maxwell and I'm an exercise physiologist and personal trainer . I am the owner of Maxwell's Fitness Programs and I've been in business since 1994 . The purpose of this podcast is to get to the real deal of what really works and , most importantly , why things work . Hence the name there is a method to the madness . Before I get to today's show , I want to thank Jonathan and Lynn Gildan of the Gildan Group at Realty Pros . They are committed to providing the highest level of customer service in home sales . Why don't you give them a shout and figure out what your home is worth ? 386-451-2412 . 386-451-2412 .
Speaker 1Let's talk a little bit about motivation today . I think motivation is a very critical thing . It's very important and I'm going to explain it from many different angles today . Hopefully . Let me start with a little story .
Speaker 1I can remember when I was in my what was it probably my senior year of college . I was majoring in psychology and I pretty much knew I was going to go more into the performance side of psychology , or at least I thought I wanted to . That's before I got my master's degree in exercise physiology . I wanted to get into sports psychology and I was leaning towards it . I wanted to be more in the physical realm of things . But anyway , I took a class called motivation because it was more in the tract of performance or sport psychology , which was my greatest interest , and it was a great class . I remember it was a night class , that's neither here nor there , but I just remember the class very well and Dr Fisher was my instructor . He was really good , I really liked him , I had him for other classes was my instructor and he was really good , I really liked him , I had him for other classes and I always tried to take him when I could because he taught also along the realms of the motivational or performance psychology . And the class literally was just called motivation . It was a , an elective for my psych degree and , um , I went in and we sat down and it was , you know , night classes .
Speaker 1If you had them in college you know that there tend to be a little more relaxed for some reason at least they were then and everybody sits down , he kind of , you know , halfway greets everybody , and uh , he just writes up on the board and I believe it was a chalkboard then , I'm pretty sure and uh , he writes you can't motivate anybody and this was like human motivation was the name of the class . And uh , he starts out with a bang like you can't motivate anybody and it's like okay , so like why are we taking this class ? And you know he obviously it was a good , good class starter , good conversation starter and you know you can't I mean you can't motivate them to become more physically fit . They have to motivate themselves . You can assist . You can't motivate somebody to go to a doctor . You can't motivate somebody to do anything . It has to come from within . So let's talk about where that comes from and then what you can do potentially to take some of these tips and make your life better .
Speaker 1First off , let's define motivation . Motivation is defined as the reason or reasons one has for acting or behaving in a particular way . If you look back on the original origin of the word , to motivate means to move . So your motivation is the reason you have for acting or behaving in a certain way . So what is your motivation ? I've said before in regards to health and fitness that if you know your why , the how becomes easy , and I think that's very true . So why do you want to get in better shape ? Why do you want to lose weight ? Why do you want to run ? Why do you want to strength train ? Why is the same thing as ? What is your motivation for these things ? And I think people have sort of an idea what their motivation is , what their goal is , but maybe we don't give it quite enough thought .
Speaker 1All right , so now I want to talk about different types of motivation . We have intrinsic and extrinsic motivation . Now , rarely are people all or none Like , rarely is it black and white . Rarely are you all intrinsic in your motivation in everything , and rare is it that you would be all extrinsic in your motivation in everything . And rare is it that you would be all extrinsic in your motivation in everything . Is there a better or a worse , or a good and a bad ? There's probably not a good or a bad , but there is a better or a worse . It typically is better to be more intrinsically motivated , and I will talk about why here as I close this up . But it's not like being extrinsically motivated is all bad . There are pros and cons , so let's first start with the one that's maybe not the best .
Speaker 1Let's talk about extrinsic motivation . What is it defined as , how does it show itself and what are the pros and cons of extrinsic motivation . So extrinsic motivation is defined as engaging in an activity to obtain a separate outcome , for example a reward , or to avoid punishment , rather than for the inherent enjoyment of the activity itself . So you are looking for something . When you're extrinsically motivated , you're looking for either a reward like money , like a trophy , like praise , like a pat on the back , mvp award accolades from your boss . So that's all like how extrinsic motivation shows . That shows itself . It also is defined as trying to avoid punishment . So that could be . You don't want to not get your bonus , you want to make sure that you're not cut from the team , you want to make sure that you get playing time . If you're on a team , you want to make sure that you don't , for example , say , have to pay a speeding ticket , right , because you're trying to avoid punishment . So like you don't speed , not because you feel like it's dangerous yourself . That would be more extrinsically motivated . You don't speed because you're trying to avoid a ticket , right ? So extrinsically motivated . You're either trying to get a prize , you're trying to get a reward , you're trying to get something positive , or you're trying to avoid the negative . That would be extrinsic motivation . So where is it good ?
Speaker 1So extrinsic motivation could be good for initial activation of an activity . So usually we see it more in younger people , like in kids . So you can use extrinsic motivation positively to try to get somebody engaged in an activity . Like if you're a teacher in school and you want kids to say , sign up for , like the debate team , because you think it's going to be very positive for them to learn how to make cases , to learn how to debate , to learn how to handle confrontations , those types of things you know . You maybe can't just say oh , you will like it and they won't know why . You have to try to get them engaged in the activity . Extrinsic motivation could be a very good tool for that . In other words , if the kid signs up for the debate team because at the end of the cycle or the month or however you do it , they get some kind of like pizza party for those that participated , that's not a bad thing . So usually using extrinsic motivation in the initial stages of something has a huge benefit because the person may not know that they like the activity yet . They may not know that this is something they want to continue to do . So it works for that . It's also good for the people .
Speaker 1This is kind of like an oxymoron , though I think it's good for the people who are not motivated . So if somebody is not motivated intrinsically , then extrinsic motivation , I guess , is , you know I say I guess because it's like to me it still sounds a little , you know , like you're on shaky grounds , you know . But it's a way to get somebody to do it and they could say , well , at least I'm doing it , even though I'm only doing it for this reason , so you know . So , yes , I would agree that being extrinsically motivated in that case is better than not being motivated at all . The cons to being extrinsically motivated , or more driven by that , is obviously there's a decrease in intrinsic motivation . So , kind of like , the more extrinsically motivated you are , the less intrinsically motivated you are . And again , it's not bad or good , but it's better or worse and it is better to be more intrinsically motivated . So if you're trying for yourself to get more intrinsically motivated , the more you set up paradigms where you're getting extrinsically rewarded or punished , the less likely you are to become intrinsically motivated . So one of the downsides or the cons to being extrinsically motivated is it takes away from your intrinsic motivation .
Speaker 1The other one I see a lot is task quality really , really diminishes , and I see that a lot . Again , it's , it's it's a degree . I have people that are like really , really , really . When I say I have people , I mean clients , people I coach . I have people that are really , really intrinsically motivated . And then I have people that are really , really extrinsically motivated , and then I have a lot of people somewhere in between , which is probably where most people are most of the time , the people that are the most extrinsically motivated . I see the worst task quality in them . It's something that we always have to work on and I point it out a lot .
Speaker 1It's like the form on , say , strength exercises is the worst in extrinsic motivation , because all they're trying to do is win . They're trying to hit a task . How many am I doing ? You're doing 10 . They're trying to get 10 done because they think that's how they get the pat on the back by the coach or they think that that's what they're supposed to do . And then you bring other people into it , like if there's more than them doing it . If a couple people are doing pushups , it turns into a competition and extrinsic motivated people tend to let their form just go out the window , which you know is bad , because in the long run then you're decreasing your ability to win in the end . But extrinsically motivated people tend to have a hard time seeing beyond what's directly in front of them , so task quality really decreases . With extrinsically motivated people , the quality just won't be there , the focus just won't be there . Everything becomes a completion of a task versus doing it the best you can in the moment . All right , so that's the pros and cons of intrinsic or extrinsically motivated people .
Speaker 1Now let's get into where I would love to see people get more to and again , it's not a black or white thing , more of a degree of more intrinsic motivation . I think we do need some extrinsic motivation , right ? I mean , I need to get paid . I need to get paid for doing my work that I do . You need to get paid for doing the work that you do . So there is always a sense of that that it's not like , oh , none of it matters , it does matter , it's just to what degree . I mean Ivo's personally is just totally not studied , not statistic . This is just my opinion on many things . Is I like the 80% rule in things all the time , like with diet ? Like be 80% really , really clean on your diet 80% of the time . So that's an example . Well , I would say the same thing with motivation . I would like to see people get extrinsically motivated only 20% and intrinsically motivated 80% . So if we can get more in that direction , I think that would be ideal and then we can take steps to do that , which , again , I will close up when we are done today trying to give you some steps on how to do that .
Speaker 1All right , so intrinsic motivation is the drive to engage in activities because they are inherently enjoyable or satisfying , rather than seeking any form of external rewards or punishment . So it is doing something for the sake of doing it itself , because you enjoy it and it is satisfying to you . For example , I feel like I'm pretty intrinsically motivated in many things . I do like to run . I like to run because I like to run . I don't always love to start to run , but I like to run , love to start to run , but I like to run Once I get into it , once I'm warmed up . I'm doing it for the sake of it , for the labored breathing , for the focus on basically the footsteps in my breathing . It's a meditative
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Speaker 1thing for me .
(Cont.) Intrinsic vs Extrinsic: The Science That Drives Your Actions
Speaker 1It gives me better health and fitness . It makes me feel better when I'm done .
Speaker 1I'm at my worst when I turn it into an extrinsic thing and I'm worried about , say , a 5k time , or I'm worried about beating somebody in a 5k . Do I think these things sometimes ? Yes , like I said , my goal is 80% and sometimes I can get more than 80% or less than 80% and then end up being too extrinsically motivated and I pay the price for it because it becomes less enjoyable . So I like to run for the sake of running , strength training , just the same thing . I love it . Of course I want some extrinsic motivation on that . I want to see the weights go up . That's not really even extrinsic actually up . You know , that's not really even extrinsic actually , but you know again , it's not .
Speaker 1It doesn't have to be perfectly all intrinsic , but I just like to strength train for the sake of strength training . I like to do it mostly by myself . I like to feel the burn , I like to feel the pump , I like to meditate as I'm doing it , for example , focusing on the form . I just like to do it . It is a good activity for me , so like for me , that's it fits the perfect definition of doing something for the inherent nature of enjoyment . I do enjoy strength training . I enjoy running .
Speaker 1I'm intrinsically motivated to do these podcasts . I like doing these podcasts . I like doing the emails . There's a sense of satisfaction when I complete writing an email or a portion of a book or whatever , and it's done and it's edited and I look at it like there's a sense of that Like , do I have to get paid for it ? I mean no , and I often don't . I like to do it for the sake of doing it . That is intrinsically motivated , all right .
Speaker 1So now let's look at the pros and the cons of it . So the pros of intrinsically motivated people is , basically , it just increases your engagement in something . You are more engaged . You are doing it for the sake of doing it . You can see it in somebody's face when they're more intrinsic , you can see a better focus in their eyes . You can see a better focus in their facial expression . They are more engaged in the activity . They seem to be following the flow of what is really going on . They are definitely less distracted .
Speaker 1People who are more extrinsically motivated are more distracted . People who are more extrinsically motivated are more distracted . People who are more intrinsically motivated are more focused . The other pros are the quality of the task . When you're doing something for the sake of doing it , you put your heart into it , you do it right . If you're doing laundry because you like to do laundry a task I don't like to do but you're going to do it with more quality , you're going to make sure that you put the spray and wash on certain things before you put it in . I mean , that's just a silly example , but it doesn't have to all be about working out on big things . We can be intrinsically motivated in tasks that we're doing because we just enjoy doing them and they're the right things to do . We stay focused and we improve our quality of task . When we're extrinsically motivated , we are distracted and the quality goes down .
Speaker 1Now , the only real con to intrinsic motivation for us people that measure it is it's harder to measure . How do you know ? How do you know , like , how do you go ? Oh man , I'm intrinsically motivated . It's like well , how do you know that ? Do you like it ? Well , yeah , I like the activity , but I also like the on the back . It's like oh , I mean . So it's hard . It's just harder to measure . It's harder to help students or people that are trying to learn how to get there . It's harder to help them know . So it's just more subjective . It's harder to get people to really feel it All right , so there's really not much we can do about that . It's just understanding that . The con is you may not know . When you're there You're getting a good idea that you know you are getting closer to it though .
Speaker 1Genetics wise , you know , it appears that Most of being extrinsic or intrinsically motivated is learned . So most of what we know about this is a learned phenomenon . There is some sort of genetic link to being more intrinsically motivated . There are some personality traits . People that tend to be more extroverted , people that tend to be more adventurous , tend to be more intrinsically motivated because they like to do things for the sake of doing it . So that's kind of genetics . Like your personality trait is definitely more genetically inherited . And then there's also some science on the dopamine system . So people that tend to be more intrinsically motivated have maybe a slightly healthier dopamine system . So they get more rewarded with dopamine naturally by doing good acts or doing things that they know they should do , without needing the extrinsic motivated system of a pat on the back or money or a trophy . So there does appear to be some genetic predisposition towards intrinsic motivation , but ultimately the science , the social science , says that both can be learned .
Speaker 1So how do we learn how to do it ? I mean , I'm going to sum it up really simple . The first thing is you have to understand the importance of it . You have to understand that extrinsically motivation , you have to understand that extrinsic motivation is only going to carry you so far . It's good to get into an activity , but if it continues to stay your motivation , you're probably going to drop out of the activity . You're probably not going to get much better because your O is consciously measuring yourself against other things or things you can't control , and you're probably not going to do a very good job at the things that you do . So the first step is you have to just acknowledge that it is a potential problem .
Speaker 1The second thing is you have to pull yourself out of activities where extrinsic motivation is the only reward . You have to go well , you know what no-transcript give yourself pats on the back for a accomplishment that feels good about yourself . If you know that strength training is good for you and you want to get more intrinsically motivated in strength training , then you should strength train and then be able to blow your own nose , so to say I mean , look , people that go to a trainer need some motivation , help , they need accountability . That's different and there's nothing wrong with that . We just also need to get to the point where we know what we're doing feels good for ourselves and we know how to say okay , so I didn't hit the eight reps my trainer told me to hit . But at the same time , I know I did my best and you can give yourself a pat on the back for that because you know that you gave your best . So that is the final step is understanding that . How do you learn to do things and then give yourself that kind of reward and or , you know , punishment , in other words , have some self-discipline to say I could have done a better job with that , all right . So let's see what we can do to become more intrinsically motivated this week , because I do .
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